Tuesday, January 15, 2008

The Cheerleaders are always with us


From John Steinbeck's "Travels with Charley"

While I was still in Texas late in 1960 , the incident most reported and pictured in the newspapers was the matriculation of a couple of tiny Negro children in a New Orleans school. Behind these small dark mites were the law's majesty and the law's power to enforce--both the scales and the sword were allied with the infants--while against them were three hundred years of fear and anger and terror of change in a changing world. I had seen photographs in the papers every day and motion pictures on the television screen. What made the newsmen love the story was a group of stout middle-aged women who, by some curious definition of the word "mother," gathered every day to scream invectives at children. Further, a small group of them had become so expert that they were known as the Cheerleaders, and a crowd gathered every day to enjoy and to applaud their performance.


Last week I mentioned that I heard a brief snippet on Bill O'Reilly's radio program of a frightened woman asking O'Reilly if it were true that Barack Obama is a muslim who insisted on being sworn into the senate on a Koran.

The very next day I received an e-mail from a woman who is the wife of one of my husband's high school friends. I'll post the entire e-mail in comments. I'm guessing that it was the radio woman's source for her Obama misinformation, since it not only contains the Koran/swearing in nugget, but claims that Obama refuses to say the pledge of allegiance and turns his back to the flag and slouches when it is being said in his presence.

It ends like this
"The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the President of the United States, one of their own!!!!
----Remember he only move [sic] to this country three years ago. It is scary. Who is funding his campaign? Who is pushing to get him in!!
How did he rise so high in 3 years?"


I was really angry after I read the entire e-mail. I thought of about eight different ways to respond to the e-mail. The first three started with 'fuck you, moron'. Instead, I put it away for a few days. Yesterday I wrote my answer. Here it is:


Snopes.com has a decent rebuttal of the claims made in this e-mail. You can read it here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Without even going to Snopes for clarification, I should think a few glaring errors would have shown this e-mail to be highly flawed, such as the declaration that Obama has only been in the US for only 3 years, or that a United States' senator would refuse to say the pledge of allegiance.

I am saddened that this piece of bigoted misinformation is making the rounds. I respect anyone's right to make an informed choice about candidates-preferably based on their stand on the issues. But this hatchet piece reeks of the same kind of religious hatred used against John F. Kennedy in 1960.

The tenor of anti-muslim hatred in this country is fast approaching the German hatred for the Jews in the 1930s. I would like to think that if I were a German living then I'd have spoken up per the words of Reverend Neimoller who said
"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me." Well, as an American in the new millenium, I will speak up for the muslims. This e-mail is just wrong.

I would like to point out that much of the misinformation printed here came from a piece in the Washington Times - owned by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, just so you know your sources.

In the mean time, Mike Huckabee was hosted yesterday by a southern baptist minister who wrote the following:

"I'm going to submit to you that as believers in Christ Jesus, we are not even of America," Wilton said. "We march according to a different drumbeat. Ours is not the Constitution of America; ours is the constitution of the Almighty God."

http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/content/news/2006/06_14_2006/ne140606sc.shtml

That frightens me a whole lot more than a Harvard Law graduate community activist member of the United Church of Christ (Obama) running the country. That is a christian saying that christians are above the constitution. I imagine that if those words were uttered by a muslim you'd realize how frightening they are to those of us who aren't christian.


I tried to send my e-mail to everyone this woman had sent it to, but my e-mail editor doesn't allow me to do a batch mailing unless I set it up putting everyone in my address book. I would do it, but you can't change idiots with such complicated devices as the facts. I'm afraid I would be wasting my time.

If you get this e-mail and you would like to reply, feel free to use mine. And thank you internet lords for Snopes.

29 comments:

Jess Wundrun said...

Here is the entire text of the e-mail:

Subject: Fwd: FW: obama for president?> > Interesting article> > >>> >>>> > > > > > >>> Very interesting and something that should be considered in your > >>> choice.> >>>> >>>> >>> If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all> > >>> your contacts...this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of us> > >>> here in our own United States...better heed this and pray about it > >>> and share it.> >>>> >>> > >>> Who is Barack Obama?> >>>> >>> Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born> > >>> in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM > >>> from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHEIST from > >>> Wichita, Kansas.> >>> Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii.> >>> When Obama was two> >>> years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His > >>> mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.?> >>> When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocate to Indonesia. Obama > >>> attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a > >>> Catholic school.> >>>> >>> Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He > >>> is quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also > >>> attended Catholic school."> >>>> >>> Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that > >>> that he is not a radical.> >>>> >>> Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this > >>> influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama > >>> returned to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any > >>> direct influence over his son's education.> >>>> >>> Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, > >>> introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi > >>> school in Jakarta.> >>>> >>> Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim > >>> terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since> > >>> it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major > >>> public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined > >>> the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim > >>> background. ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he> > >>> DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.> >>>> >>> Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor > >>> will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their > >>> hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and > >>> slouches.> >>>> >>> Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential > >>> candidacy.> >>>> >>> The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside> > >>> out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through > >>> the President of the United States, one of their own!!!!> > >>> -----Remember he only move to this country three years ago. It is > >>> scary. Who is funding his campaign? Who is pushing to get him in!!> > >>> How did he rise so high in 3 years?> >

Jess Wundrun said...

Here is the Snopes rebuttal:

Variations: One version of the e-mail in circulation claims "We were told this was checked out on 'snopes.com'. It is factual. Check for yourself." and includes a link to this web site. It's our guess that whoever included that bit was counting on folks to not check, as our article says the opposite: that the polemic is not factual but rather is false.

Origins: Barack Obama, 45, served as an Illinois state senator for several years, and in 2004 he won a seat representing that state in the U.S. Senate. His keynote address before the Democratic National Convention in June 2004 brought him national prominence, and he is currently one of the leading contenders for the nomination to represent the Democratic Party in the 2008 presidential election.

Barack Obama has an unusual and interesting background, which the above-quoted piece draws on to paint him as a dangerous, camouflaged radical Muslim. Much of the information presented therein about his background is distorted and exaggerated, however, and no evidence supports a claim that Obama is currently, or ever has been, a Muslim (radical or otherwise).

Claim: Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunh am, a white ATHEIST from Wichita, Kansas. Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii.

Barack Hussein Obama (Senator Obama's father) was born on the shores of Lake Victoria in Alego, Kenya. He met and married an American woman, Ann Dunham of Wichita, Kansas, while they were both attending the University of Hawaii. Their son, also named Barack Hussein Obama was born on 4 August 1961 at the Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Although the elder Obama was raised as a Muslim, no evidence supports the claim that he was ever a "radical Muslim," and Senator Obama's family histories note that his father was an atheist or agnostic (i.e., no longer a practicing Muslim) by the time he married the younger Obama's mother. Of his mother's religious views, Senator Obama wrote:
For my mother, organized religion too often dressed up closed-mindedness in the garb of piety, cruelty and oppression in the cloak of righteousness.

This isn't to say that she provided me with no religious instruction. In her mind, a working knowledge of the world's great religions was a necessary part of any well-rounded education. In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology. On Easter or Christmas Day my mother might drag me to church, just as she dragged me to the Buddhist temple, the chinese New Year celebration, the Shinto shrine, and ancient Hawaiian burial sites. But I was made to understand that such religious samplings required no sustained commitment on my part. Religion was an expression of human culture, she would explain, not its wellspring, just one of the many ways — and not necessarily the best way — that man attempted to control the unknowable and understand the deeper truths about our lives.

In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well.
Claim: When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya . His mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia. When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia . Obama attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta . He also spent two years in a Catholic school.

Barack Obama's parents divorced when he was two years old, his father moving to Connecticut to continue his education before returning to Kenya. When the younger Obama was six years old, his mother married again, this time to Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesian oil manager. Barack and his mother moved to Jakarta, Indonesia, where Obama spent 4-5 years attending both Muslim and Catholic schools before his mother sent him back to the United States to live with his maternal grandmother. The school Barack Obama attended in Indonesia was "Muslim" primarily in the sense that the preponderance of its student body was Muslim (because Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country), but both the Muslim and Catholic schools he attended in Indonesia offered a few hours of religious instruction each week.

In his 2006 book, The Audacity of Hope, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances:
During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables.
Claim: Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also attended Catholic school." Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that he is not a radical.

Barack Obama never stated that he "was once a Muslim" (radical or otherwise), so his "handlers" have nothing to "conceal." Obama communications director Robert Gibbs noted that "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim. As a six-year-old in Catholic school, he studied the catechism." Barack Obama has been associated with the United Church of Christ since the mid-1980s, describes himself as a Christian, and says that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition."

Claim: Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and this influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over his son's education.

As noted above, Barack Obama's parents divorced when he was only two years old, and his father then moved thousands of miles away, from Hawaii to Connecticut, so he couldn't have received much of an "introduction to Islam" from his (biological) father:
My father was almost entirely absent from my childhood, having been divorced from my mother when I was two years old.

At the time of his death, my father remained a myth to me, both more and less than a man. He had left Hawaii back in 1963, when I was only two years old, so that as a child I knew him only through the stories that my mother and grandparents told.
(Barack's only other childhood contact with his father occurred when he was eleven years old, and his father came to visit Hawaii for a month at Christmastime. The elder Obama died when Barack Jr. was twenty-one years old.)

Claim: Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta. Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.

The claim that Obama attended a radical Wahabbist school in Indonesia in the mid-1960s is exceedingly far-fetched, given that:
The large Indonesian community resident in Mecca was a medium through which knowledge about Wahhabism reached Indonesia, but the community itself appears to have remained virtually immune to Wahhabi influences. In reality there was little direct influence of Wahhabism on Indonesian reformist thought until the 1970s.
Insight magazine claimed in a January 2007 article that Barack Obama spent at least four years attending what is variously described as a "madrassa," a "radical Muslim religious school," or a "Muslim seminary" in Indonesia, but CNN has more recently reported that its own investigation found those claims to be false:
[R]eporting by CNN in Jakarta, Indonesia and Washington, D.C., shows the allegations that Obama attended a madrassa to be false. CNN dispatched Senior International Correspondent John Vause to Jakarta to investigate.

He visited the Basuki school, which Obama attended from 1969 to 1971.

"This is a public school. We don't focus on religion," Hardi Priyono, deputy headmaster of the Basuki school, told Vause. "In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don't give preferential treatment."

Vause reported he saw boys and girls dressed in neat school uniforms playing outside the school, while teachers were dressed in Western-style clothes.

"I came here to Barack Obama's elementary school in Jakarta looking for what some are calling an Islamic madrassa ... like the ones that teach hate and violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan," Vause said on the 'Situation Room.' "I've been to those madrassas in Pakistan ... this school is nothing like that."

Vause also interviewed one of Obama's Basuki classmates, Bandug Winadijanto, who claims that not a lot has changed at the school since the two men were pupils. Insight reported that Obama's political opponents believed the school promoted Wahhabism, a fundamentalist form of Islam, "and are seeking to prove it."

"It's not (an) Islamic school. It's general," Winadijanto said. "There is a lot of Christians, Buddhists, also Confucian. ... So that's a mixed school."
The Associated Press reported similarly:
A spokesman for Indonesia's Ministry of Religious Affairs said claims that Obama studied at an Islamic school are groundless.

"SDN Menteng 1 is a public primary school that is open to people of all faiths," said the spokesman, Sutopo, who goes by only one name. "Moreover, he studied earlier at Fransiskus Assisi, which is clearly a Catholic school."

Obama later transferred to SDN Menteng 1 the elite, secular elementary school at the center of the controversy. The school is public but is very competitive and has exceptionally high standards. It is located in one of the most affluent parts of Jakarta and attracts mostly middle- to upper-class students, among them several of former dictator Suharto's grandchildren.

Indonesia is home to several of the most radical Islamic schools in Southeast Asia, some with alleged terrorist links. But Akmad Solichin [the vice principal at SDN Menteng 1], who proudly pointed to a photo of a young Barry Obama, as he was known, said his school is not one of them.
Moreover, a statement released by the Obama campaign affirmed that:
In the past week, many of you have read a now thoroughly-debunked story by Insight Magazine, owned by the Washington Times, which cites unnamed sources close to a political campaign that claim Senator Obama was enrolled for "at least four years" in an Indonesian "Madrassa". The article says the "sources" believe the Madrassa was "espousing Wahhabism," a form of radical Islam.

All of the claims about Senator Obama’s faith and education raised in the Insight Magazine story and repeated on Fox News are false. Senator Obama was raised in a secular household in Indonesia by his stepfather and mother. Obama’s stepfather worked for a U.S. oil company, and sent his stepson to two years of Catholic school, as well as two years of public school.

To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicago. Furthermore, the Indonesian school Obama attended in Jakarta is a public school that is not and never has been a Madrassa.
Claim: Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.

As noted above, Barack Obama describes himself as "a Christian," says that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition," and his association with the United Church of Christ began over twenty years ago, long before he contemplated a political career. (Obama was first elected to the Illinois state senate in 1996, but he has been involved with the United Church of Christ since the mid-1980s.) The beginnings of Obama's relationship with the church were described in an April 2004 Chicago Sun-Times article:
Obama is unapologetic in saying he has a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ." As a sign of that relationship, he says, he walked down the aisle of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ in response to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's altar call one Sunday morning about 16 years ago.

The politician could have ended his spiritual tale right there, at the point some people might assume his life changed, when he got "saved," transformed, washed in the blood. But Obama wants to clarify what truly happened.

"It wasn't an epiphany," he says of that public profession of faith. "It was much more of a gradual process for me. I know there are some people who fall out. Which is wonderful. God bless them ... I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me."

These days, he says, he attends the 11 a.m. Sunday service at Trinity in the Brainerd neighborhood every week — or at least as many weeks as he is able. His pastor, Wright, has become a close confidant.

So how did he become a churchgoer?

It began in 1985, when he came to Chicago as a $13,000-a-year community organizer, working with a number of African-American churches in the Roseland, West Pullman and Altgeld Gardens neighborhoods that were trying to deal with the devastation caused by shuttered steel plants.

"I started working with both the ministers and the lay people in these churches on issues like creating job-training programs, or after-school programs for youth, or making sure that city services were fairly allocated to underserved communities," he says. "And it was in those places where I think what had been more of an intellectual view of religion deepened.

"I became much more familiar with the ongoing tradition of the historic black church and its importance in the community. And the power of that culture to give people strength in very difficult circumstances, and the power of that church to give people courage against great odds. And it moved me deeply."
Claim: ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.

This statement is completely false. It is a mistaken reference to a different politician, Minnesota congressman Keith Ellison, not Barack Obama.

Claim: Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

Senator Obama drew some criticism over a photograph that showed him standing without his hand over his heart during the playing of the U.S. national anthem, but the claim that he "will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance" is false.

Additional information:
Debunked Insight Magazine and Fox News Smear Campaign Debunked Insight Magazine and Fox News Smear Campaign
(U.S. Senator Barack Obama

Dr. Zaius said...

So that means that Obama is Muslim, right? No wonder his middle name is Osama Bin Laden!

Jess Wundrun said...

Yes, and he eats babies.

FranIAm said...

Oh dear Jess... You are a saint. You chose the best path to respond, it would have been easy to respond in the heat of anger, but you chose the path of wisdom.

That is but one reason why I luvs me sum Jess Wundrun!

People with no ego strength must continue to lash out in fear, ignorance and anger. As a result we have crap like this and so much more.

Infuckingfuriating.

Thanks for your wisdom.

pissed off patricia said...

The trouble is that many who read and believe that email, want to believe the contents rather than facts. I have no idea why, but they seem to want it to be true.

Randal Graves said...

Their vote counts as much as ours. I love democracy sometimes.

Sorghum Crow said...

Well said Jess.
And Patricia has it right, there are people that want to believe this crap. Used to be, being black was bad enough, now I guess you have to be black and a Muslim, and have an ATHEIST mother.

dguzman said...

Wow, Jess. I guess I'm never surprised at how uninformed some people are, but what gets me is that they go around trumpeting their ignorance in every way possible. Good response to her--we can only hope that it made a dent.

Dr. Monkey Von Monkerstein said...

Way to go friend! We should all confront stupidity with facts as you have done here.

The Cunning Runt said...

As a non-consumer of the M$M garbage which saturates the airwaves and "minds" of America, I'm left wondering how much HEADLINE-QUALITY-EFFORT has gone into debunking this bunk.

It's sadly true that the cretins who devour these lies and pass them on in mass mailings DO VOTE, and that they wear their willful ignorance as badges of pride.

It's also true that those of us who DARE to expose the lies and provide the TRUTH as an alternative are loudly decried as GOD-HATING, FAG-LOVING FASCISTS who "need to be 'cleaned up' as soon as [we] get the 'green light.'" (That last quote is from a commenter at Ann Coulter's Human Events blog.)

We're in for some very tough times in the very near future, people. There will be assassinations. There will be lynchings. There will be riots and Marshal Law and private armies with orders to shoot to kill.

And I'm just not sure we're ready to stand up against the rabid hoards of well-armed Chuck-Norris Wannabes.

Suzy said...

Thanks for this, Jess, but I would also caution against reacting as Cunning Runt does. We are currently IN tough times: our infrastructure is crumbling, much of what we as Americans have held dear either has been or is in danger of becoming "corporatized" (the term that Ralph Nader says we should be using instead of "privatized.") There are a lot of reactionary people out there, motivated by a lot of fear. But this is not unique to our period of history, and it important to continue to speak truth to power, to hold a vision of what we want the world to look like, to NOT demonize people we perceive as our "enemies", to practice nonviolence ... When I begin to fear for myself or my children, I remember that my parents -- liberal to the core -- lived through McCarthyism and Vietnam, they saw Nixon elected twice, they saw Reagan the insane anglo warlord elected twice. Be smart, yes, but be wise as well.

DCup said...

Jess - Good for you for responding to this persone who, from all appearances, is someone you have limited contact with. I'm amazed at how people I barely know have not problem sending items like this to me and the other people in their address book.

The technology makes the rumor mill run at a furious pace and, sadly, the ill-informed use it quite effectively.

I'm glad you did what you did and I'll probably be back to steal your response when this thing finally lands in my inbox.

Distributorcap said...

jess

a very liberal friend of mine said to me TODAY that she received an email about Obama being a muslim and wanted to be sworn in on the koran (which was the case for Keith Ellison of Minnesota)

and she believed it!

i dont know where to begin

Tengrain said...

Well, given that there is no requirement to be sworn in on anything (let alone a bible or a koran, or even a phonebook or last month's copy of Playboy), I always find these stories to be so much fun to debunk.

Nice job, Jess.

Regards,

Tengrain

Johnny Yen said...

Jess-
I was stunned when my mother sent me that email, asking if it was true. I though she, of all people, would know better. I sent her the link for the snopes article.

The fact that people believe this explains a lot. It also explains how the idiots who are in office could have gotten there-- the stupidity of anyone who believes this; if they remember their high school civics class; only people born in the United States can be elected.

Johnny Yen said...

Jess-
I was stunned when my mother sent me that email, asking if it was true. I though she, of all people, would know better. I sent her the link for the snopes article.

The fact that people believe this explains a lot. It also explains how the idiots who are in office could have gotten there-- the stupidity of anyone who believes this; if they remember their high school civics class; only people born in the United States can be elected.

Zoey & Me said...

Karl Rove in his NY Times piece said Obama played basketball at Harvard and was lazy. Said those two items are all the MSM needs to blab about so another Republican gets elected. That I believe!

FranIAm said...

Karl Rove and the New York times - two full of crap things!

Seriously though= zoey is correct... it takes so little.

no_slappz said...

Jess, the e-mail about Obama was clearly a hoax. It amazes how often these obvious scams are treated as though the contents are entirely factual.

One of the more popular versions -- the one I got -- included the name and phone number of a person purportedly employed at Yale. That information appeared at the beginning of the e-mail, and it was obvious at that point the message was a hoax.

Like all hoaxes, the message contained some facts. Obama absolutely studied at muslim schools as a kid. He was living in a muslim country. He's got a muslim name.

To argue that he is not a "muslim" is to keep the thought alive. But the argument does not alienate all voters. Blacks are not troubled by it.

Unfortunately for Obama, he has not repudiated Louis Farrakhan. I'm sure he won't and that means a link will eventually form in the minds of many voters. The fact that both are Chicagoans will add to the impact of a link between a black man with a muslim name who received his earliest religious education as a muslim and the leader of the Black Muslims.

There are many reasons his campaign will end soon. One of those reasons is that there is no chance the US will elect a president named Hussein. But he'll be out of the race long before that. Probably next month after the votes are counted on Super Tuesday.

You wrote:

"The tenor of anti-muslim hatred in this country is fast approaching the German hatred for the Jews in the 1930s."

You have no idea what you're saying. There are obviously three topics about which you are uninformed: Jews in nazi Germany, muslims in the US and muslim attitudes toward the US, the West and Israel.

There are no laws in the US that restrict, imperil or impinge upon the lives of muslims. In fact, it goes the other way. Various muslim organizations, such as CAIR, have repeatedly demanded the placement of restrictions on Americans who criticize islam. They do not believe in free speech. Try selling a Bible in Saudi Arabia or any other islamic nation. Try converting a muslim to Christianity. Proselytizing is a serious offense in islamic countries.

In Israel, they do intend to destroy the country from within. That is the point of their fight for the "right of return." And the wider muslim world supports the so-called palestinians in this mad pursuit.

There is ZERO basis for claiming muslims in America are like Jews in Hitler's Germany. To make that claim is to suggest the US government runs extermination camps to commit genocide.

Moreover, there is widespread support for terrorism among muslims. And they practice terrorism with a deranged determination. These are facts, not groundless fears or bigoted nonsense manufactured by propagandists.

Jess Wundrun said...

You are wrong about my statements. Further, there were never any German extermination camps in Germany. Ever.

There were German concentration camps, true. Prior to the beginning of the war, these held mainly political prisoners.

The comparison can be made, then, to our policy of extraordinary rendition, and our off-shore use of Guantanamo Bay.

You've used examples of how other countries act. What interest do I have in that? The conversation is about the United States of America.

And yes, the e-mail is false, but it is not being read as a hoax by those who fearfully pass it along. They are buying it hook line and sinker.

Another common problem that you typically have is switching your point of view from what is happening in US society to what is happening is US government.

My discussion is about the actions of the people of the United States. The people are being made to fear the big islamic bogeyman. Is it the MSM? frightwing bloggers like you? Stupid e-mail letters? George Bush's hissy fit speeches about terrah? Yep. All of the above.

Oh, and I've noticed that once again you are too chicken to post your comments earlier where others will disagree with you, or engage you in debate.

Why is that, I wonder?

no_slappz said...

jess, you wrote:

"You are wrong about my statements. Further, there were never any German extermination camps in Germany. Ever."

Oh. I see. So you're now showing support for nazis. That's great.

You went on:

"There were German concentration camps, true. Prior to the beginning of the war, these held mainly political prisoners."

You're looking like a defender of the Third Reich.

You wrote:

"The comparison can be made, then, to our policy of extraordinary rendition, and our off-shore use of Guantanamo Bay."

What point are you making? Possibly a few people have died while being held by US authorities or agents operating on US behalf. Possibly a handful of deaths have resulted. Yet you're willing to compare a possible handful of deaths with 6 million deaths resulting from a nazi policy of genocide. That's pathetic.


You wrote:

"Oh, and I've noticed that once again you are too chicken to post your comments earlier where others will disagree with you, or engage you in debate."

I'm not sure what you mean. It's been a while since I checked your site. That's the only reason for the timing of my comments.

Anyway, like I said, there's nothing happening in the US that is comparable to occurrences and developments in nazi Germany.

The US government arrests people suspected of terrorist acts. Jews in nazi Germany were rounded up and sent to camps because they were Jews. Six million were exterminated. That was one-third of the world's Jewish population

Meanwhile, muslims kill each other with gleeful abandon. Check on the victims of suicide bombings. The vast majority of victims are muslims killed by other muslims.

You wrote:

"My discussion is about the actions of the people of the United States."

Actions? Like what?

You wrote:

"The people are being made to fear the big islamic bogeyman."

First, fear is a re-action. Not an action.

Second, the message from all US political leaders has been to see the difference between islam and islamic fundamentalist nuts. Our leaders have repeated that islam is not the problem. The problem, they have said, is a small group of radical fundamentalists.

If Americans were as terrified as you seem to think, then we would see bodies of murdered muslims piling up wherever muslims live in this country. How many murders of muslims have occurred since 9/11?

The answer is 1. On the other hand, there have been subsequent attacks by muslims on Americans. Also, 1,000 Americans were murdered by muslims between 1968 and 9/10/01.

Meanwhile, like many matters in this country, most people have little or no contact with those at the heart of the controversy. Lots of Americans have zero contact with muslims. Many have no contact with blacks and many have no contact with Jews. Nevertheless, opinions are formed.

You wrote:

"Is it the MSM? frightwing bloggers like you? Stupid e-mail letters? George Bush's hissy fit speeches about terrah? Yep. All of the above."

I gather you live in a tame part of the US where people are easily duped by silly e-mails and no stunning acts of anti-US hate have occurred. Lucky for you.

However, because many muslims attended my college and were in my classes, because I traveled in muslim countries before 9/11, because I used to work in the World Trade Center in NYC, because I have spoken to muslims in NY City, I have some opinions on some of the sentiments of muslims.

Jess Wundrun said...

Bzzzzzt! Stepped over the line, pal.

Guess I can't let you go on.

If you are going to make a comment like "There are obviously three topics about which you are uninformed: Jews in nazi Germany,..." with absolutely nothing to back it up, followed by a sentence that says I am obviously a supporter of the third reich, you are going to be banned from this site.

Man, will I ever learn?

Sorry, pal. You just lost your privileges here. Again.

Ciao. Don't come back.

I do need to rebut one thing: I've lived in NYC. I worked in an office made up of 100% muslims. I worked in Atlanta and left the site of the terrorist bombing at Centennial Park less than one hour before it happened. This past fall we visited the Alfred P. Murrah building in the heartland of dupes and rubes. There is much to fear from fundamentalists.

The most bigoted people I've ever met were inside NYC. The closest I've come to terrorist attacks were those of the Christian Right.

no_slappz said...

Since there has been speculation on dr. monkey's sit, my physical description follows:

Height: 5'11"; weight: 180 lbs; hair color: brown; eye color: brown. Lean build resulting from good diet and weight training.

Daily shower and shave.

no_slappz said...

jess, you wrote:

"I worked in an office made up of 100% muslims."

Are you a muslim?

You wrote:

"I worked in Atlanta and left the site of the terrorist bombing at Centennial Park less than one hour before it happened."

So what? The question is what you might have learned about Eric Rudolph and the unfortunate Richard Jewel.

You wrote:

"This past fall we visited the Alfred P. Murrah building in the heartland of dupes and rubes. There is much to fear from fundamentalists."

Once again, you express the notion that Timothy McVeigh and perhaps three co-conspirators carried out the thoughts, desires and goals of some large number of Americans. However, as you should know, McVeigh was executed for his act. Fortunately he was executed a couple of months before 9/11. He would have been thrilled by that attack.

McVeigh was nationally reviled. I suppose a handful of screwballs were distressed by his execution. What can you do?

You wrote:

"The most bigoted people I've ever met were inside NYC."

Wow. There's over 8 million of us here in NY City. That's a lot of bigots. Your statement on New Yorkers is an eloquent reflection of your bigotry.

You wrote:

"The closest I've come to terrorist attacks were those of the Christian Right."

Which means nothing happened to you. Or maybe you were the victim of a drive-by yelling.

Jess Wundrun said...

by your reasoning unless you have been personally, physically harmed by a muslim terrorist attack I guess you'll need to stfu as well, huh?

Logic escapes you.

Guess you missed the meaning of the word "banned".

You've proven you can't manage a civil discourse for more than one post.

all future posts are going to be deleted.

Zoey & Me said...

We've been following this all day and officially declare Jess the winner. Now can we get on with our lives? Huzzah!

no_slappz said...

jess, you wrote:

"by your reasoning unless you have been personally, physically harmed by a muslim terrorist attack I guess you'll need to stfu as well, huh?"

My office was on the 47th floor of World Trade Center Tower #1. However, I was in mid-town Manhattan when the planes hit. A little while later I hustled downtown. By that time some of my friends and business associates had died.

I've had other close calls with people shooting guns at me and coming at me with other weapons. Those were clarifying experiences too.

It seems most of your experiences were memorable due to your feelings toward the people whose company you did not care for. But from what you wrote, not one of them took hostile action against you. It's not as though you were swimming in the shark tank.

Jess Wundrun said...

Sorry, charlie. You, like me were not in the middle of the attack when it happened. By your rules what happened to your friends was ancillary.

Your point was whether I was personally injured. You have admitted you were not.

What does people pointing guns at you have to do with anything? Were you duck hunting with Dick Cheney?